Track creation, min/max race lp question

[ai_line_mod]

According to Fortine's excellent guide here: https://web.archive.org/web/2014041...racks_board/index.php?topic=225.msg502#msg502 the ONLY lp file to use throttle/brake is the race.lp. However, I am trying to edit the lp files of a track, and have noticed that when the ai take the min or max line, they sometimes jab the brakes. The lines appear smooth, however, given that the min/max shouldn't use throttle/brake in their calculations, I'm somewhat confused as to why ai check up when they take those lines. Have track creators found that the min/max do in fact affect throttle and brake? Could the issue be something else?

 

[Mystical]

Most likely becasue they are moving up or down the track and have to recalculate due to the accel or decel track.ini settings.

Only race.lp tracks throttle/brake, if the race.lp has any variation of speed when creating it or splicing it together that can casue AI to have weird braking or throttling.

 

[ai_line_mod]

Yes, this makes sense. Yet, when I use my race.lp with the original min/max lps that came with the track, the ai doesnt check up at those spots. In fact, the race lp is pretty smooth, which suggests to me the issue is with the min/max lp. That being said, they *appear* smooth with reflap on, however when the ai take them they check up just slightly, enough to prevent any effective side by side racing. So either 1) they aren't as smooth as they seem to be, or 2) the throttle/brake used during the creation of those lps are affecting the ai, or 3.) I'm missing something?

 

[fortine_oo]

Yes, this makes sense. Yet, when I use my race.lp with the original min/max lps that came with the track, the ai doesnt check up at those spots. In fact, the race lp is pretty smooth, which suggests to me the issue is with the min/max lp. That being said, they *appear* smooth with reflap on, however when the ai take them they check up just slightly, enough to prevent any effective side by side racing. So either 1) they aren't as smooth as they seem to be, or 2) the throttle/brake used during the creation of those lps are affecting the ai, or 3.) I'm missing something?

Qualified response: this assumes that when you made the comparison between the original lp's and your newly created lp's:
a) you were using the same track.ini values and the same racing series
b) your new lp's are indeed linearly aligned and continuos

1) the new max/minrace lp's are misnamed, i.e. maxrace is actually minrace and vice versa
2) the new max/minrace lp's conflict with the max/minpanic lp's

--------------

Quote from the webpage you linked:
I can't make lp's.../WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT/6. The race.lp:
..... If the track has high speed corners, and you don't have to lift in gtp, but you do have to at least lift the throttle in cup, gns, and cts, you're going to need a separate race.lp for gtp, and another race.lp where you lifted for the high speed corner, for the rest. When you use the no lift race.lp in a series that can't take the corner flat out, the exe calculates that a reduction in speed is needed and artificially adds braking when only a throttle lift was needed, consequently the ai really bog down and the player will run into them. If you can navigate the corner with only a lift when making the race.lp, the exe won't require the ai to use the brakes, hence the reason for making a separate stockcar race.lp. I left out pta because sometimes, in this scenario, the gtp race.lp will work for pta and sometimes it won't.

Also, with the amount of variables that affect ai operation, How To Develop ai (a SHORT COURSE)

and, Reflap (NR2003 lp Creation Tool) "How To"

 

[ai_line_mod]

fortine! First, thank you for everything you've contributed to the community. I've found your resources very helpful, and I really appreciate how you mechanically breakdown and explain a lot of what the game does.

Qualified response: this assumes that when you made the comparison between the original lp's and your newly created lp's:
a) you were using the same track.ini values and the same racing series
b) your new lp's are indeed linearly aligned and continuos

1) the new max/minrace lp's are misnamed, i.e. maxrace is actually minrace and vice versa
2) the new max/minrace lp's conflict with the max/minpanic lp's

I think the culprit MUST be b. I for sure did not change the ini between making lines. I know they are named correct, and they do not interact with the panic lps. The note about gtp/pta is interesting, but I avoid both of those physic types for the most part. I am however using CTS to make the lines, as it is more stable, as you suggested. But of course I have to lift less/no braking, so this is an interesting point to consider nonetheless. I do often wonder what the original Papyrus crew did to make their lps... Maybe it was just lots of time, or maybe they edited the game to make the cars drive in a particular way that suited the creation of lps.

My goal is to make some tracks that are experientially similar to the default tracks (drives similar, similar AI racing), as in almost all cases, I think they are the best. On that note, I know there's a page from that old NRtracks site that was never archived, "Grip level value for NR2003" and I was wondering what your take was. I feel like the fad of high grip levels in track creation is detrimental to a lot of the nuance in the game, and has a lot of downsides, but given your expertise, what are your thoughts?

 

[fortine_oo]

..... The note about gtp/pta is interesting, but I avoid both of those physic types for the most part. I am however using CTS to make the lines, as it is more stable, as you suggested. But of course I have to lift less/no braking, so this is an interesting point to consider nonetheless.

Having made "Controlled speed" race.lp's that out performed my very good "full speed" race.lp's, I now do the "Controlled speed" method exclusively*.
* [This method is suited for a RC, where smooth driving and car control is a premium for good race.lp creation and slowing and acceleration occur regularly. Real race speed is not required, technique is critical.]


From the webpage you linked ** :
ai...WHAT'S THE TROUBLE, WHAT'S POSSIBLE, HOW TO DO IT
Reply #2/ I can't make lp's .....

HOW TO MAKE A RACE.LP
The methods:
c) Controlled speed

** Your link to "ai...WHAT'S THE TROUBLE..." (Reply #2) is actually an earlier archived version ( 2013 ). The page has been updated since your linked version. IDK what other differences there are, if any, but the "Controlled speed" method of creating a race.lp was added in 2015.

My goal is to make some tracks that are experientially similar to the default tracks (drives similar, similar AI racing), as in almost all cases, I think they are the best. On that note, I know there's a page from that old NRtracks site that was never archived, "Grip level value for NR2003" and I was wondering what your take was. I feel like the fad of high grip levels in track creation is detrimental to a lot of the nuance in the game, and has a lot of downsides, but given your expertise, what are your thoughts?

From Resources [many of my ai methods & procedures archived here]

Grip Settings (direct link)
Reply #10, Grip level value for NR2003
(Do I want to go sim racing or play a video game)

 

[ai_line_mod]

Thank you, fortine. I've been reading a lot of your material, and also going through archived SRD forums, etc. to learn as much as I can. Question: has research ever been done with changing certain game parameters? Eg changing the chassis type to 0 for creating lp files, or using aids like traction control, or even the VH caster hack? I haven't myself tried these, as I before I invested so much time (I might anyway), wanted to check with the expert.

 

[Rufio2031]

While the race.lp is the only one that uses throttle/brake telemetry to determine AI speed behavior, I fully believe it's best to create the min/maxrace.lp's at full speed to the best of your ability. The LP you have may appear straight, but there can be little tiny fluctuations that I think is what's causing your problem.

Best I can explain is if you draw a curved line on a piece of paper as slow and accurate as you can, it will always come a little less smooth than if you quickly ran the pen across the paper. The trick is getting that quick pen movement to be the exact curved shape you're looking for. In my mind, that is the art of minrace and maxrace LPs.

 

[ai_line_mod]

While the race.lp is the only one that uses throttle/brake telemetry to determine AI speed behavior, I fully believe it's best to create the min/maxrace.lp's at full speed to the best of your ability. The LP you have may appear straight, but there can be little tiny fluctuations that I think is what's causing your problem.

Best I can explain is if you draw a curved line on a piece of paper as slow and accurate as you can, it will always come a little less smooth than if you quickly ran the pen across the paper. The trick is getting that quick pen movement to be the exact curved shape you're looking for. In my mind, that is the art of minrace and maxrace LPs.

This is an excellent analogy, thank you!